Legal Risks of Saying Yes, Meaning No

Struggling with when to say "yes" or "no"? In Learn Laws Ep. 5, James White and Attorney Andrew Easler break down the legal and practical sides of your choices. From contract essentials (offer, acceptance, consideration) to protecting your value as an entrepreneur, this episode has you covered! Educational only—not legal advice.

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- Welcome to Learn Laws where knowledge is power. Now, legal advice just for education, need real counsel. Don't roll the dice. Always- Speak with the license. Discern, welcome to Learn laws. I'm James White, and we have Andrew Eastler in the house. This is our, I believe, episode number five. Number five. Number five. So I guess we'll jump right in. Question I guess for you is, I want to know the power of yes and no. So we were talking about this earlier today in preparation for our podcast, and I said, Hey, you know, this happens all the time. People say, you know, they'll, they'll be in a conversation with somebody, whether they're out for drinks or they're on the phone, or they're trying to sell or build relationships or whatnot, and somebody asks them a question and ask like, can you send me a list? Or Can you help me mow my grass? Or can you help me move? Or something like that. Right? Right. And the, the instant response I think most people have, especially when, when it comes to friends, family, or really trying to build a business, is yes, the answer's always yes. Because I think our culture is ingrained to say yes, because we're a customer service oriented culture. And the power of Yes means a, it could be a big deal in, from a legal context, right? When it comes to, to laws and regulations and so forth. So, and I was telling you earlier today, I had a situation where I said yes, and then after I got off the phone with that individual, I thought about it and I said, oh, the actual answer's no. And I was asking you how to deal with that situation,- Right?- And I came, I gave you some background, and this is where we came up with the topic for the podcast today, the power of yes and no. So I'll, I'll, I'll let you interject here and let me know. So I'm gonna say yes, and you're gonna tell me the consequences, I guess, or kind of how that mean, what that means from a legal context.- Yeah. And I think anybody who's, who's doing business, which is probably most people, right? Even if you're an employee, you're, you're gonna end up creating contracts and agreements that you're gonna be bound to follow whenever you're assenting to things. So first we have to start with a foundation, right? What does it mean when you say yes? Well, legally, if we're gonna do an analysis of whether or not your agreement or your ascent has some kind of strings attached to it, we have to find out whether there was an offer, whether that offer was accepted or rejected. And if it was accepted, is there a consideration that came along with it? Okay? So offer acceptance and consideration. So this is just the foundational principles and the commonwealth and common law for how to form a contract that can be binding.- So offer acceptance and consideration.- Right? Okay. So- Let's start with the offer, then. I guess the offer would be, Hey, James, can you send me a list?- Sure. Okay. So if that's the offer, can you send me a list? Yes. And what are the terms of that offer? Right? We have to have make sure that when, when you have an offer, that you have terms that are clearly communicated- Yep.- That it includes the essential terms, right? So what, what are you doing in exchange? What are the terms? When is, when is it gonna be delivered? Right? Is there any consideration that you are gonna pay in exchange for that list? Right? So if it doesn't have the essential terms, then it may not be enough to constitute a meeting of the minds, which is a legal term of art that basically says, Hey, do we both have the, the same understanding as to what's supposed to happen?- Yeah.- If you ascent, if you say- Yes. Okay.- Okay. So that's offer, assuming that that offer had all of the terms that we needed to, to have in order to make it an enforceable contract.- Yeah.- Next we move into acceptance.- Okay.- Okay. So when we're talking about acceptance, what you communicate back to the other side really kind of depends and determines whether or not it constitutes acceptance legally. Okay. So if we're looking under common law, which means usually for services, right? If we're talking about products, then in the United States, we often follow under fall, under UCC guidelines, which is for products. Okay? Okay. But if we're talking about services, so if, Hey, can you give me the, can you perform this, this part of the contract? Okay. Yeah. If you're talking about services and you say, yes, but I would want $500 in exchange for providing you that list, yeah. Then that's not technically an acceptance under the common law. When you say yes, but, and you introduce new terms to the deal.- Yeah. - Then now it, it's actually a rejection of that original offer and a counter offer that gives the other side the opportunity to then accept or reject or reject and provide another counter offer in return.- Okay. That makes a lot of sense. So in my situation, when somebody said, Hey, can you provide a list? And I said, yes, and then I hung up the phone, is that, that's an offer and acceptance, but there's no consideration.- Yeah. Now you're talking about the analysis. Okay. Okay. So we have three things that we need. So let's say that the original offer was enough to constitute the all of the essential terms, your communication of Yes. Is your verbal ascent to agree to that particular- Request.- Request or offer.- Okay.- Now we need to know whether or not that acceptance is enforceable. Well, in order to find out whether it's enforceable, we need to find out whether consideration has, has occurred. Okay. Okay. Consideration, we often think of as, Hey, here's $500. That's the consideration in, in exchange for you getting that list. Right? Okay. But it can also be relying to their detriment. Let's say that person needed that list in order to move forward with binding themselves to a new, that that list would then be a part of, right. They needed that list in order to perform on their end of the, the contract.- Yeah.- And they come to you and say, Hey, can you get that? Gimme that list. You say, yes. They say, okay, cool. Now I can move forward with this other contract. They've now changed their position with regard to another obligation that they have, in which case that alone can constitute consideration.- Oh, wow. On their behalf, or my behalf? On their behalf. Okay. So they, that would be consideration. They paid- Me. Well, it's consideration that makes the contract potentially enforceable. Oh, okay. Because now they have basically relied to their detriment- Yep.- On you being able to provide that information for them in order as a, in order for them to perform another obligation in the future. So they've changed their position.- Okay.- So that could constitute consideration.- Now, the reality of it though, is what are the chances that that would actually constitute a constitute consideration for a list? For instance, in my, in my case, now my case, obviously it's not, it's pretty simple, right? There's not really any reliance on that list or anything like that, because the list is made up of a bunch of names and numbers. But in, in my situation, obviously, I would say if I had objections or say I said yes, because I was being friendly, I didn't really think through the question properly, which I think happens a lot,- Right?- Where we're just having a bantering back and forth a conversation and somebody says, Hey, can you help me move? And then, and I think everybody's being in this situation, this is why I wanted to bring this up, because I, I do, I, I catch myself doing this sometimes, and most of the time I'll just say yes and then do it. It's not a big deal for me. But this time after I got off the phone and I said, you know, what has that person ever did anything for me? Like, why am I giving them this list? Like, I did all the work to build the list, right? I did all the, I spent my own money on advertising to build this list, and now this person asked me for the list, which, you know, I like the person. They're, they're, you know, they've been, you know, reasonable to me over the years.- Neutral.- Neutral. Yeah. Reasonable neutral. They're business associates. So it's not like I, you know, I go to a family events with them or anything. And, and then I thought to myself, why am I doing this for free? And I think this is the biggest problem a lot of entrepreneurs have the power of no, we're right. We'll get into that in a little bit, I think. But again, after I got off the phone, I said, I turned to you and said, you know, this doesn't feel right to me. Like, why am I doing all the work? And they're saying, Hey, I need a list to provide it to somebody else. And I'm like, I don't even really, you know, that other person I don't have, you know, I'm friendly with that other person as well, but again, you know, my experience is they've never really done anything to help me out. So why would I want to give them that list? Right? So that's when I said to you, I said, what would I do in this situation? And my answer was just, you know, let them know, Hey, I don't feel comfortable with, you know, sharing this information. I've worked hard for it, so, you know, unfortunately, I'm not gonna be able to share it with you. You know, have fun, good luck, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then that's when we said, Hey, this would be a good podcast to show, right? Because I've had this situation multiple times in my life, right? So, you know, I remember when I was younger and I was building my, my first business, which was a landscaping lawn care company. And I had this contract with a, a major carrier in, in a worldwide carrier. And the manager of the distribution hub, I became very good friends with, you know, hired me when I was young. So I had this allegiance or loyalty to this person because they gave me a contract, they gave me an opportunity, and I, you know, we, we, it was a back and forth relationship, right?- Right. - And I remember he was going on vacation or, or something like that, and he said, Hey, James, you know, I had this flyer distribution route as a part-time business, and I'm going away and I need you to, you know, cover my territory. Would you mind covering my territory for, you know, I don't know, it was like 30 or 60 days or something, and you know, I'll pay you 25 cents per house to deliver the flyers. Now, back then, that was like, you know, 2002, 2003. So what, it was still low back then.- Right. - And I remember talking to my mother, I think, I don't know what I was like, 18 or 19 or something, right? And I depended on my mother a lot for her, you know, experience, because I, I would ask her questions, and I'm young, and I don't have a lot of life experience yet. And she said, why would you do that? That doesn't make any sense. Right? They're taking advantage of you. And I think there was a fine line in my life, this is kind of being, you know, a lead up to this conversation, really. But there's a fine line, I think, between being grateful for somebody helping you and giving you business because you're performing an obligation, you're doing it well, which is why they continue to hire you and saying yes and no. Right?- Right. - And I, I ended up, I think it was call, yeah. I called him and I said, Hey, look, I can't do this. You know, I got a business to run. I don't mind helping you out. But again, this is just, I, I'm too busy. I don't have time. And then it sort of soured the relationship. So I think that's followed me my whole life, that one lesson where now I wanna say yes, and I get worried about saying no. So I don't wanna say no, I just wanna say yes, because I'm worried that if I say no, and I think a lot of people are in my situation, that that's going to ne negatively affect their relationship for the future, whether it's potential business, whether it's potential loss of business and so forth. So I think that's where me, where I, in my mind, I always wanna say yes. Right? But then I need to, then you've taught me over, you know, the last 15 years of knowing you and, and doing business together in various different ventures. The power of no and why no should be your first response to almost everything until you have time to think about it. Right? Or you should say, maybe, you know, I, I'll think about it and let you know, and that should be the default answer, but it's really hard to retrain my brain.- Yeah. And I think that's a really important distinction that you're making. And I think, of course, everyone's on their own little journey, of course, as we go through and we've all learned our, our own lessons over time. And, and sometimes we have to forget lessons that we've taught ourselves and, and learn new ones in order to, to find new opportunities. And, and that's actually one of the things that, that, when I first taught on day one, I was asked to, to teach a class inter inter introduction to analytical skills at FA MU College of Law. And day one of that class, I got up in front of the class and I said, everyone who wants to say yes, raise your hand. Anybody who wants to say no, put your hand down. And they asked me yes to what, what are we saying yes to? What are we saying no to? And I just repeated the prompt and waited for people to raise their hands and or make a decision as to, to keep their hands down.- Yeah.- And as you would expect, about 50% of the class had raised their hands, and 50% of the class had kept them lowered.- So they raised their hands and said yes, without knowing what they were saying yes to, without- Any idea what they were saying yes- To. That's very interesting.- Right. And so this was kind of an experiment to kind of get a feel for where their mind is at, right? Yeah. What is their psychology? What's, what's going on? What's their, what's their fear? What is their willingness to, to move forward with risk? And what's their risk tolerance? What is their personality type? Yes. Right?- Yes. - And so, once I had got everybody to lock in, in their answers, it helped me give them a little bit of advice when it came to approaching law school going forward. And so, when I told, when I was speaking to the people that said, yes, those are the kind of people who are willing to go out and take risks. Ah, and those are the people who want to go out and do everything Right, or like you. Right? Yes. You wanna say yes, because you don't wanna miss out on a particular- Opportunity. Perfect. Yeah.- Now, those people, they're more susceptible to having situations where they've taken on too much. Right. And they're not able to handle and juggle all of the different tasks that are gonna be involved with managing law school. Right? Yeah. It's, it's a lot of work to do.- Yes. - And so for those people, I encourage them to learn how to say no. Right. Start thinking about what are things that, that you're gonna prioritize and make important in your life when somebody asks you to go drinking at night, when somebody asks you to join a club, when somebody asks you to do all these other things that are outside of the extracurriculars, start prioritizing and valuing the things that you wanna say yes to, and making sure to practice saying no to people.- Yeah. So that makes a, I said yes multiple times here. Right. I'm a yes. Right. I like saying yes, because again, I like to make deals. And I think, again, I think a lot of people when they, when they have this situation or this problem that I have, that I've had my whole life, is they're, they're always trying, not necessarily trying to please people, but they, they, they don't wanna lose opportunities. Right,- Right. Especially entrepreneurs, just like that paper route Yes. Or, or flyer route that you were talking about,- Right? Correct. Correct.- If, if you had said yes, maybe that relationship had blo would, would've blossomed into something with a much greater opportunity or value for you.- Yes. - So we're all making value judgements in every decision that we're making, and trying to understand in both short term and long term, what kind of benefits we're gonna receive. Right. If I say yes to this particular situation, what's the long-term consequence? If I say no, what's the long-term consequence? Is there a benefit to improving this relationship even though the short-term value is less than what I can perceive as a potential long-term return? Does that make sense?- That makes sense, yeah. From a business perspective, obviously this is business oriented show, so- Right.- You know, if you're dealing with a family member, those, those, those that may be much different than, than what we're talking about here. But I agree with you. Yeah. I think I analyze that all the time from a business perspective, when I say yes, I say, okay, what are the long term? And I always feel like there's always a reason why somebody has come into my life, or there's always a reason why something is happening, right?- Right.- So somebody asks me for a favor or something like that, and I say Yes, and then I think about it, and I really mean, no, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm going back and forth saying, is this worth it? Is this not worth it? What are the potential consequences of me saying yes or doing certain things? Right?- Right. - And I think that's where my stress comes in, is because I say yes, then I realize I want to say no. And now I don't know how to handle the situation of calling that person or texting them or doing whatever, saying, Hey, you know, just FYI, you know, after I said, yes, you know, I thought about it, I just don't feel comfortable, you know, that's a very hard conversation to have because then it makes me look like I am willy-nilly, even though I'm not. I just didn't have time to think about the question. Especially people with a DHD like me, we don't really think through a lot of the, which makes it, it's a, it's a good thing and a bad thing. It makes us successful in a lot of ways.- Right. - But it's also very detrimental to, you know, our long-term success. Right. So my answer, obviously is going to be, Hey, I don't feel comfortable doing this. Thank you very much. You know, have a great day. But, you know, we'll work together on something else. Maybe- Well, remember if, if we're always making value judgements when we make those kinds of decisions, other people are making those value judgements themselves. And so in that situation, maybe instead of just going back and saying, Hey, I thought about it and I, yeah, I decided against it. Have the other person make their own value judgment as to the worth of that decision that you've done. Right. If you've committed to doing something for somebody else, My suggestion would be to ask them, what do you think that that particular decision is worth? And if they come back and say, I don't think it's worth anything to me, then you know that that person has no value for or respect for what you, you've decided to offer. And you have a disparity between the value and the appraisal of your own worth and that service that you're gonna be providing them and what their perception is. And so either you need to re reset that relationship and actually explain your worth or cut it off. Right. It, I think this person you've known for 10, 15 years- Yeah. I've known them for a long- Time. Yeah. So, you know, I think that's long enough for somebody to really understand your worth, the value and the value of what, what you provide. Yeah. And being on a neutral setting with him where he hasn't really done anything terrible to you, but he hasn't done anything really great for you.- Yeah.- I think that's, I think you, you, you probably know the answer to that.- Yeah. I, I definitely probably know the answer. Right. Maybe that's what I'm afraid of saying no for, because I know the answer, what the answer will be, and then I will realize that that person never valued my experience or my work ethic to, to capture that list, for instance. Right.- Right.- And then that's going to disappoint me. And as an entrepreneur, once I'm disappointed with somebody, I really don't wanna work with them anymore. So by saying, no, I feel like it's going to destroy that 15 years or that 10 years of building that relationship for whatever reason. Right. Because again, when I build relationships, I don't build relationships for the fact of just trying to sell somebody or, or make money from somebody, or have them trying to release money on a project or something. I build relationships 'cause I genuinely like that person, or I find that person very interesting. Right?- Right. - And so that's one of my biggest challenges is when you build relationships and you have long-term, you know, you're, you have long-term friendly relations where you say hi and bye, and go for coffees and lunches and dinners for the sake because you like that working with that person, you like them, and then something like this happens, and they, and then you say, well, what is it worth? And they say, well, it's worth nothing. And they say, Hey, you know, I'm your friend. And they pull the friend card out, even though you know, you're not really friends. It's more of a business associate type relationship. When the answer's no, then that's very disappointing to an entrepreneur. And I think that's my problem. I get very disappointed when I actually try and value myself and the people that I thought I liked and respected. When they don't value me, then it, it's very disappointing for, for myself. But I think this is the same case for many other people, whether it's- Right.- Entrepreneurship, whether it's a personal situation, whether it's helping a friend move. I mean, how many people have said, Hey, you know, I help that person move all the time, or I help that person do things when I need them. They're never there for me. And I think that's kind of the same concept we're talking about now, where, you know, I've, I haven't really, you know, again, we've been friendly. We haven't really done a lot of business together, but then now we're finally realizing the value of the relationship. Right.- Right. Well, the, the question is, how many opportunities has he had to actually analyze or assess the worth that you bring to the table? Yeah. Right. And I think over 10 or 15 years, I would assume that there's more than one opportunity for that.- Yeah.- And so I think to the people that are on the other side saying, well, hang on. You know, have you done enough to, to showcase your own value? Sure. Or have you known him well enough or him allowed him to know you well enough in order to make that value judgment with informed perspective, then, you know, if, if he hasn't had that opportunity, maybe that's the problem. And maybe your, your responsibility would be to showcase that.- Yeah. And I think that is a lot of, a lot of my problem I've had. I, but I think it's a lot of entrepreneurs problems too. They don't know how to showcase the value that they actually provide somebody. And I think that's why a lot of entrepreneurs may not become as successful as they should be, even though they're very good at what they do is they don't showcase that value very much. Right. But again, when you're not in the business of doing something, so in my situation, right, I'm a real estate developer. I invest in a lot of real estate here in the Space coast in Brevard County, Florida. Right. And I've met a lot of people, but that's not a full-time business for me. Right. That's more of a passive type investment where I have multiple properties and, you know, I do certain things. And so I meet a lot of people in, in the ordinary course of that business. I meet inve other investors, I meet brokers, you know, wholesalers and a wide variety of people. And so I think the reason why I don't show showcase my value in that aspect would be because it's not a full, I don't consider it anyways, even though I do work a lot with it, I don't consider it a full-time venture or a venture where, you know, those relationships are valuable to me. Right. Even though I, I like them and they are valuable to me. I don't, in my mind, I don't think they're valuable. Right. If that makes sense. So I'm, I'm more like willy-nilly, or I'm more, you know, just open to doing whatever. And I don't actually say, Hey, this is my job, this is my business. Right. And I think I'm giving myself my own advice. Like I gave you, when we first started Easter Law, you know, people said, well, you should offer free consultations. Right. And I said to you, are you crazy? Why would you offer free consultation? You went to law school for, you know, to get a law degree. It was, I think seven years. Right. Plus all the other hard knocks learning lessons you've had business failure to, you know, dealing with complex transactions. That's all knowledge and information that you've acquired very painfully over the course of your lifetime.- Yeah. - Right? Like, just like me or anybody else listening to the show, and I've taught you how to value that and said, no, if people are not willing to pay for your life experience and your actual legal advice and your malpractice insurance and all this other stuff, then they're, they're probably not going to pay you to actually resolve their problem. Therefore, you're just going to be spinning your wheels. Right?- Yeah. I- Think- You're absolutely right. And if we look at the foundation of business and entrepreneurship, the core of it is appraisal,- Right? Yeah. You have to praise your time. You have to say, what is, what is this life experience worth? And I think for me, that's been an ongoing process, right. For my whole entire life. You know, for those that don't, you know, know what I've done in life. You know, I started with a a$20 snow shovel in Calgary, Canada built a, a, a pretty substantial business. Right. You know, looking back at my age, when I started a 12 years old, my mom and dad did help me shovel sidewalks. But ultimately I did a lot of the, the sales work and the business development work and so forth. And by the time I was 18 or 19, I had a pretty successful business, right? And when you come from a place of, when you come from a place of, of failure and you're rebuilding, it's really hard to appraise your time.'cause you feel like you're worthless. So I think that's been, it, it's an ongoing, I think it's an ongoing lesson for me as far as, you know, reappraising my value, and I don't really value my time when it comes to real estate knowledge, information, transactional type situations that I, I really don't value myself based on that. Maybe I should. And I think that's a lot of the problem with, with, with entrepreneurs too, is they just, again, like you said, they don't, they don't understand the value that they're actually providing, even though they're providing lot of value. So how would you provide, how would you suggest to somebody if they're coming to talk to you or something, or even me, how would you help them understand the appraisal method and them providing value? Does that make sense?- Yeah. Yeah. So this often comes into place whenever they're, people are coming in for a contract or when they're looking for a partnership, right? So let's say you wanna start a business with another member and you wanna start an LLC.- Yeah.- You know, planning and having a meeting of the minds- Yes.- Right from the outset is critical, right? Because when there's a disparity between what you guys believe to be the value of what you're contributing to the relationship, there's always going to be some kind of conflict resentment or friction, right? Yes. So if you can out define it, right? What do you bring into, into the business? Are you gonna bring money? Are you gonna bring expertise? Yeah. Are you gonna bring leadership? Are you gonna bring connections?- Yeah.- Are we gonna use those connections? And what are those things worth? Right? Let's put some numbers on things, because that's all we can do. We can guesstimate, right? We can, we can, there's fuzzy lines, of course. But if, if the person that you're working with thinks that, that you're worth $10,000- When- You come in as a member and what you're bringing to the table is worth $10,000, but you believe what you're bringing to the table is worth a million, there's gonna be problems down the line.- Of course. And I think a lot of people don't, even myself, don't think of that at the time when we're forming these relationships, whether it's, you know, we're talking from a business context, right? Sure. Obviously not at a personal or relationship oriented context. I guess a business relationship is a relationship, but I think it's more transactional, right? So I think for me, when I value stuff, I want to, I really wanna help people out. That's one of the reasons why I like what I do, right? Whether it's helping people design a business and start a business from nothing, whether it's helping people transition from being an employee to an entrepreneur, that gives me a lot of satisfaction. And so I think that also has, has an impact on my appraisal of my value because I'm, I'm interested in helping them, first and foremost before I'm interested in making money, which is being the reason why I'm so successful now. But it's also been the reason why it's caused me a lot of anguish and pain, right? Because I feel like all those, all those stressful situations I went through when I was younger with my first business failure, and all the networking I've done, and all the people I've spoken to and helped and learned from and so forth, I feel like that knowledge is worth a lot of money to people. It should be worth a lot of money because I'm, I'm basically speeding them up 10 times to becoming successful because I, I help them avoid, you know, roadblocks or, you know, potholes in the road so they don't- Right.- You know, lose a tire or, you know, wreck their car, their, you know, their entrepreneurship dream or what I call a car, right? An entrepreneurship car. So again, the, it, it's, it's, it's a slippery slope for me because I don't wanna lose a relationship, but I also need to value my, my effort. And, and I, I think, I don't know if I'll ever, ever fully, you know, get over that, you know how to say no, but I'm going to start learning how to say no. Because again, you need to learn how to say no to be successful in business, period. And I think that's what makes most successful, like really successful business people, successful is they know how to say no. And they know, like you said, how to define that value. Right?- Right. I think that's important because again, if that, if that conversation had gone differently- Yeah.- Let's say that person did understand the value of that list.- Yeah.- And you, they came to you and said, Hey, listen, I understand that this list that you, you could be providing to me is worth $25,000. Yeah. If I were to go buy it in the marketplace.- Yeah.- I, I understand that. I don't have 25,000, I'm not, I'm not able to give you $25,000 for this, but if you could do me the favor and just give me that list, I will repay you in the future. Yeah. That conversation might have gone differently. Of course. Yeah. Of course. Right? So if they had understood and we were able to demonstrate the value of what we were providing, then maybe that relationship would've been differently, or maybe they would've paid you the $25,000 if that's what it was really worth, worth to- Them. Yeah.- Right? So first we have to understand our own worth before we can even effectively communicate and showcase it to other people when they come to us. So, so that's, that's one spectrum. Yeah. Right.- Okay.- And you're over here on this level of the spectrum.- Yeah.- Right. You're saying, Hey, I'm, I'm more hu humble humility, that kind of thing. Yeah. And that's why I have a problem valuing myself and saying, saying no to people. But remember in that classroom there was 50% of the class that had not raised their hand. They were saying no. And so for those people, they have started with a, a mindset of caution, but also potentially more value o over what they were bringing to the table than maybe what they were actually worth. And so they may be putting away opportunities where they could add value by saying no too frequently. So to those people in my classroom, I said, start learning to say yes. Right? If your initial knee jerk reaction is to say no all the time, then you're definitely gonna lose out on some of the best opportunities in any higher level university to network, to join, relate, join clubs, learn new, new interesting practice areas that you might be, you know, more interested in doing than what you originally thought. So there's, there's two sides to that coin. And of course, just that little experiment is not enough for me to really do a full cycle analysis. Not that I'm even capable of doing that, of course. But it really is important for all of us to start thinking about our unconscious, you know, preferences when it comes to these things and whether or not we're, we're accurately valuing ourselves, whether that's too low or too high.- Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So I, I think the takeaway I'm getting right now is a, I need to define what that relationship is, right? So I think we need to define, is it a personal, personal relationship? Is it actually personal where they know your wife, your kids, they babysit them, they take 'em on fishing trips and so forth, and then categorize that relationship into one. And then the second part for me is, okay, that person is, I'm friendly with that person, doesn't mean I'm friends with them, but I'm friendly with them from a, you know, an employment or a, like a business perspective, and what value does that person provide my business? Right? And I think this is actually kind of flows into time management as well, saying yes and no actually helps with time management,- Right?- And so if you define what that relationship is in your own head, right? Even maybe with the other person, but generally in your own head, okay, this person is this type of relationship to me and this is what it means to me. So this is how I'm going to treat this relationship. So yes, I will say yes, but I'm going to say yes with caveats where, hey, I need to get paid for my time, my energy, my, my skillset, because this is the way this relationship was formed. Like, we're a business. This is a business, right? This is not a personal, like, you've saved my mother from drowning and I'm gonna, you know, I owe you a debt of gratitude for the rest of my life, right? This is a business transaction and I think you need to- Decide, right? But even then, even that situation is, is a value judgment, right? There's going to be some level of value that you're gonna attribute to that benefit that was conferred upon. Yeah. If he saved your mom, then from drowning, you know, there's still gonna be a limit to what you're gonna be able to do for him, then are you gonna massacre a thousand people in exchange for that? If they ask? Of course not.- Yeah, of course. I get it. But I think you need to determine, first and foremost, from an entrepreneurship perspective, where that person fits into your journey, right? And if that person's purely transactional, then you need to make efforts in your own mind to appraise your value and say, this is what I'm worth. And based on your situation or what your ask is of me, this is what I think the, the value is to you based on giving you my knowledge, my skillset, my contacts, my database, whatever I'm giving that individual or that person, right? Right. So I think you need to define the relationship first to get a proper appraisal, right? Because again, that list may change. Make them multi-billionaires, right? We've had situations in, in, in my career where I helped somebody start an e-commerce business. We made a deal, and that person did very well, you know, a couple years into the, the relationship because of my efforts up front,- Right?- And then, so I gave them all this knowledge, all this information I helped, I used my own money personally to, to build their business, right? Without them knowing. 'cause that's just the type of person I am. I like to work behind the scenes. And when they started becoming successful, they started hiding money, they started doing different things, right? So again, I should have valued my, my skillsets more and earned more money than what I did. Does that make sense? Or am I, am I off topic a little bit here?- No, no, I think you're right. And it also goes back to, to them understanding your, the value that you contributed.- Yeah. - Right? Because if they had truly understood the value that you're contributing to their, then maybe they wouldn't have done what they did.- But do people really understand the value that you create upfront? So that- I think that's, that's one of the responsibilities of us as a party to any particular transaction. Yeah. Right?- Because I, I think people have that question. Like, I have that question all the time. Like, how do I showcase this value? Like, I'm very good at what I do, I have, you know, a good database of contacts that like me, that trust me, that follow my advice. But how do you value that from a relationship, relationship to relationship?'cause like we said earlier, okay, I give this list and this is just, this is a real life example. I give this list to this person and they don't value me very much. They give it to whoever going to give it to, and I get nothing for it. Even though I've taken the phone calls, I've built those relationships with those people on that list, you know, but I don't feel, I feel like why would I give that list up for free? Because it's a business relationship. Does that make sense?- Well, listen, it's okay to donate.- Yes. - Your time, your energy, your value. Yeah. But the important thing is, before you do that, make sure that the other side recognizes and accepts your worth and your value judgment.- Okay? So gimme an example. Sorry, I don't mean to interrupt, but gimme an example. How would I, how would I, based on the list that we've talked about for the show, how would I, how would I display that? How would I showcase that?- Well, we start with something simple. We ask them what they think it's worth, right? Hey, you've asked me for, for a copy of the list. What do you think it's worth? If he comes back and says, I don't think it's worth anything. And yet you still believe that it's worth at least $10,000 on the, on the, in the market. Yeah. Right? Then there's obviously a disparity there. Now that's an opportunity for you if you so choose to then try and explain why you believe your valued judgment is, is better than his appraised value a judgment.- Okay.- Now, if it's so far off that it doesn't seem like it's practical, then just say, you know what? I think we're too far off in terms of what we understand the value of what I'm about to do for you. Even if I was gonna do it for you for free, that I don't wanna do business with you anymore- Because you don't value me- Because we have two, our, our valuation methods, our appraisal methods are too far apart. Correct. And it's not even worth it for me to even start to try and spend my time, which I value. Yep. To then explain how I, how this is gonna help you.'cause if you don't understand that at this outset, being this far in knowing me, knowing what I provide, and I am an honest person and I deal deliver very well,- Yeah.- Then maybe it's not worth it.- So I guess this is kind of the same concept of somebody saying, I've helped that person out so much and they just keep taking what we call professional takers. That's the term we use all the time. Right? Right. That person is a professional taker.- Yeah. Well, most professional takers, either consciously or subconsciously have a problem with valuing other people's time. Yes. Right? So either they recognize their value and then don't act in accordance with that in terms of what a, a common reasonable person will do. Yeah. In that scenario.- Yeah.- Or they don't recognize it because they just never learned the right way to value other people's time, money, and contributions.- So where do you draw the line between a business relationship and a personal relationship? Right? So where do you draw the line? So here, I'm gonna, I'm gonna eye you up for instance, right? Hi Andrew. I'm James and welcome. I'm an entrepreneur and I develop real estate and help people build their businesses. And I really like you as a person. We've done, you know, we just met. So where do you define the value? Like how do you start the appraisal process, right? When it comes to that relationship, do you say to yourself, you know, this person's only gonna be a business person and I have no personal interest in building a personal relationship, but I'll be friendly and, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll have a little fun stuff. Or do you say, this person's a really good person, I wanna become personal friends with them and then like, do you see what I'm saying? I think that's the biggest conflict people have is when you meet somebody you don't know where they stand. Meaning you don't know if they're going to be business associate 'cause you're trying to sell them, or you're going to be personal friends because you like them and respect them. Right. Or you wanna build something. So I think there's two, like it's not everything here. Lemme go back, right? It's like having an employee,- Right?- If you're an employee of a company or you have employees, you define that role as they, you are the employer and they're the employee, right? So you know how to act or how to handle certain situations. Now, if it's a friend, a personal friend, you may handle it a little bit more emotionally right? And less analytically. So that's the point I'm trying to make is where do you draw the distinction when you're first meeting somebody or in, when you're into a long-term friendly relationship, whether it's, you know, business associates, whatever, family, friends, where do you, where do you start that appraisal process? Meaning that, where, where do you define them?- Yeah, yeah. I mean, do you put 'em in first and foremost? I don't, I don't, you know, appraise myself to be some kind of expert sociologist. Yeah. Sociologist. I'm, I'm not that kind. I'm talking from a legal perspective though, right. But, you know, when it comes to, to that kind of legal perspective, I would, I would suggest that you start with the, the circumstances in which you met them, right? If you were referred to this person by another business associate, then the presumption should be that you should put them into that category, that they're gonna be in a business relationship. And you probably shouldn't mix personal stuff with business. Yes. Right? And if you are going to start crossing that line, or you have the, the desire, let's say you meet them in just a, you're at your neighbor's house and you meet 'em at a barbecue, you start talking, you find what they're doing interesting. Maybe you want to invest in their business, maybe you wanna do a partnership with them later on.- Sure. - Okay. Yeah. If you've already started the relationship on a friendly term and you wanna cross the boundary into a business relationship, then obviously having a meeting of the minds and understanding the professionalism and making sure that they're able to not mix that business and professional relationship and still maintain that relationship going forward is, is an important conversation to have.- So maybe that's how you actually meet friends, what I call nat, I call it natural networking, right? We've talked about this before where some people forced, they go to like the Chamber of Commerce events, then they go to these networking events and they're just being sold. And everybody hates networking. Even me, I hate networking, right?'cause you always know what the networking's about. And so I like what they call, well,- I wanna say we're not saying that chamber of commerce is, is is useless.- No, no. I mean, they do have value. What I'm saying is you have to, what the whole point I'm trying to make is, again, if you're going to one of these networking events, whether it's at like a, you know, a local, you know, club or something like that, you have to understand that you're going there for business, right? Right. You're going there to either be sold or to sell. That's really what that is,- Right?- And so you might meet somebody at those events that you like, like you said, you like, you find them very interesting. You may want to learn more about their business. And that's what I call natural networking. When you have a connection with another business person about their, what their product is or what their services or their ideas or, or their essence or whatever it is, right? And so you have to have respect. So I think the lesson I've learned from you today, among other things, is, you know, if you have a friend or you meet them in like in a, in a more of a social setting at a, a barbecue or whatever, and, and you wanna do business together, you have these ideas. Sit down and make sure you draw the line of respect. Meaning that, hey, we met at a, a personal gathering. I like you as an individual, I find you very interesting, but on a business perspective, this is the business and this is what I'm worth. This is the value, this is what I provide. And can you respect that? And part of showing that respect to you is saying, Hey, I value your time and I value your time that I'm going to pay you for your consultation. Right? So, and you get this all the time as an attorney. People come to you and they say, Hey, you're, we're at a party, or you're at a party and they're like, Hey, I got a legal question, right? And you're like, Hey, I'm at a party. It's Friday at 10 o'clock at night. I don't really wanna give legal advice. Right? And then they say, okay, whatever, bye. And they leave and, and,- And then I'm the jerk.- And then you're the jerk. And this is, this is the whole point I'm trying to make is, you know, again, that person didn't respect your time, your knowledge, your education, all the, all the, the pain you went through to recycle that pain into something of value for somebody. So that's a person that probably would not even make a good friend either, because they're, again, trying to extract information outta you based on your life experiences and your education for their benefit. But they don't respect you because not only are they saying, Hey, I don't have the money to pay you, I just need this question answered. They're not even saying, they're just asking the question, expecting you to answer it. And if you don't answer it, you know, you're the jerk.- Well, yeah. That goes back to a potentially flawed appraisal method.- Yeah.- Right? And it's not for me. I mean, everybody's on their own journey and maybe, yeah, maybe they're right. Maybe I, I have worthless information to provide. Yes. Okay. Yes. And, and therefore they shouldn't have to Yeah. To do anything in exchange or, you know, follow the regular procedure to do that. Yeah. But in, in general, right? If, if there's a disparity in how I am appraising my own value with how somebody else is pres praising my value, then either there's a pro, there's a flaw in my method or their method. Okay. Yeah. And it's certainly an ongoing process and you know, there might be a situation where I'm way off and you just learn from it, right? You're gonna make mistakes.- Yeah. Everybody makes mistakes, but I mean, that's how we learn, right? This is how we, we make those, we learn from those mistakes, we recycle it into something good, and we try and, and, and build off of that, right? So I think the, again, the lesson is if you're going to say yes to somebody, right? Obviously try and think about the ask first, right? Me, I like to say yes.'cause I'm, I, I, I think, I think I think quick, right? I'm not a syrup as I used to be when I was, you know, 18, 19, 20. And again, because I'm a pleaser and I wanna say yes to people, I have to learn to say, Hey, I, I, I listened to your ask. What's your ask? Okay? My ask is, I need this list. Yes, I may be willing to provide it to you, but I have to define what do you like, why do you need it? And what purpose is it going to fulfill? And I, and if it's from a business perspective, what's it worth to me? And I have to define that ahead of time before I get to that final Yes. And I think the lesson for me in this situation is I said yes too quick. Then when I got off the phone with that individual, I started thinking about it. I'm like, why would I give this person my list? This is crazy. Why would I say yes to that? Because I actually like that person to respect them. That's why I said yes.- Right? - But unfortunately, instead of them saying, Hey, you know, I'll pay you for the list, or, I understand that was a lot of time that you've taken, developed that list.- Yeah. I really appreciate you willing to do that for free, even though I understand that it's worth a lot more to you and to me, correct. Than just giving it away for- Free. Yeah. And then I get a text message saying, Hey, just a reminder, make sure you send me that list. Not like, Hey, you know, thanks- Again.- Thanks again. Just wanted to follow up, you know, where's the list? So- Right. So that's where we get to that disparity between the value judgments.- So I think I know my answer obviously, but, okay. So for the, for the listeners out there, I think the takeaway is if you're going to say yes, make sure you have a meeting of the minds. Understand why you're saying yes, first and foremost. And if it's a business context, make sure you get value for that. Yes. Right? Don't just do anything for the sake of doing it because you're training your friends or your business associates the wrong way because they're not gonna respect your time. They're just going to waste more and more time. Just like earlier, when somebody expects a free consultation, what makes you, what makes somebody think that they're coming? If they want a free consultation and they expect that free consultation, they're probably not going to wanna pay their, their legal bill, or they're probably going to complain about the time you've spent to actually resolve their issue.- Well, yeah. I mean, so again, this, this all goes back to the value appraisal method.- Yes.- Right? So in a situation where it's personal injury, you get into an accident, the value of your potential claim to that attorney is worth more than having to receive some kind of monetary compensation for that consultation. So in a personal injury context, for example, free consultations are very common because both parties have an understanding and a meeting of the minds with the understanding that when you come to me with this fact scenario and this potential claim, I'm willing to give up my time because this, there's value in what you're bringing to the table. Well, because they know the payment, because it's gonna be- Contingency. Yeah. There's, the contingency is the, the person has insurance. Like if you go to a personal injury, like, again, I don't wanna get off topic here, but if you go to a personal injury attorney and you say, Hey, this person hit me and I want to sue them, the first thing that attorney's going to ask you is a PI attorney is do they have insurance? Did you get your insurance information? And if they don't have insurance, the chance of them taking your case on are probably next to nothing. And because if they don't have insurance, they probably don't have the money to pay you. But getting back to my point is if you say yes, have a meeting in the minds, understand why you're saying yes. If and if you, if you wanna put value on it, put value on it. If you wanna do it 'cause you're just, you like doing it, then I guess do it. I mean, that's, you know, your prerogative. But try not to say no to everything.'cause you might lose opportunities. Right. And again, if you do say yes, and you change your mind and they get mad at you, then they never valued you to begin with. That's, that's what I'm taking away from this. Right?- Yeah. I mean, and it could be just a, a flaw in their appraisal method. Right. Maybe they didn't have all the information that could have been an issue too. Yeah. But in a situation where you're, you're aware that they have all the data necessary in order to make the appraisal judgment and you don't want to spend the time to try and convince them to change that method, then yeah. It's, it's probably time to terminate their relationship.- That makes sense. And move on to to, to greener pasture, so to speak. Right. So takeaway is you have to, so you have to have the, the, if you say yes, you have to have the meeting of the minds. So what is that, what are those three things you said earlier in the- Podcast? Yeah, so for an enforceable contract, we're looking at offer offer. So somebody's communicating essential terms to the contract, giving you inviting acceptance. Yep. Right. You turn around and you have the ability to say no, which would be a rejection, and then there's nothing you could say Yes. Which they, you're there you have an acceptance or you could say, yes, but I want X, Y, and Z in addition, which is changing the terms and which will then be actually in a rejection and then a counter offer. Perfect. Okay. So you have offer acceptance if you said yes without any additional terms, again, assuming this is a service contract, not a, a product agreement. Yes, of course. Because that there's a different rule for that. Yes. Then you have to have consideration. Right. Some kind of value exchange and value can be a positive value. I've given you $500 in exchange for that list that you were gonna give me. So now we have consideration for your required performance to give me that list.- Yep.- Or some kind of reliance to your, to somebody's detriment a change in position.- Okay, perfect. And so you mentioned a product is different. What, what, what would be the, the equivalent to a product?- Yeah. So if I was gonna buy a chair from you right?- Yeah.- Then, and we're dealing with, you know, like consumer products, for example.- Yeah. - Then we we're looking at things under the UCC. Okay. Which is the uniform commercial code. It's a different set of laws other than the common law. Okay. And so they have a very complicated way of looking at offer and acceptance. And it depends on whether you're a merchant or not. And you're dealing with consumer to consumer transaction, business to consumer, or business to business. And it's a pretty complicated analysis. So- That's whole other show, it's- A whole nother other show- For probably three, four or five hours. Okay. Perfect. Yeah.- So, but the short answer is, you know, saying yes with other conditions may not be a rejection or, and counter offer when it we're dealing with products.- Okay. Perfect. So offer acceptance. Okay. So we have an offer, we have acceptance,- Supported by consideration.- Supported by consideration. Okay. Perfect. Okay. And then the appraisal method is you have to determine what your knowledge, what your, your product, your service is worth that specific individual. Right. Whether you think it's worth nothing and you just give away for free, or you think there's some sort of value there to them. You have to negotiate. And I think that's what makes, again a good entrepreneur is you say, Hey, I have the skill. This skill is valuable to this person for X amount of dollars, but the same skill might be value to that person for a lot more. Absolutely. And so learning to value yourself is really, really important. I think a lot of people have that problem, including me. Right. I don't value a lot of my knowledge all the time the way I should value it. Right. That's, and then we get angry and not angry, but we get very disappointed when we give so much love and so much knowledge to people to help them. And they just don't appreciate, respect it. And I think everybody, no matter who's listening the show has had that some, some similar or some semblance of that situation before where they've gone outta their way to help somebody multiple times or once, and they feel like they've been taken advantage of or they don't feel appreciated- Because they've assigned a value to whatever they've been giving.- Yep. - And the other person has assigned a value that is zero or something well too far apart from that original value.- So I think I need to revalue personally, me, and I think other people out there right now, I think they're already doing this, to be honest with you,'cause I think I'm doing it right now, is I think people need to look at their, from a business perspective, and again, not personal, but from a business entrepreneurship perspective, look at the contact you have, right. Determine if that contact has been useful for you or not. Again, from a business perspective. And if it's useful to you, determine the value of that contact and say, Hey, okay, this is your ask. What's in it for me? What am I gonna get out of it? And how is this going to help you? Is that a good framework to determine if that relationship's worthwhile pursuing? Because again, we, we get bogged down, we don't want a thousand people calling us and a thousand people to do nothing for us. Right. There's tying vampires at that point.- Well, listen, I mean, that's not to say that there are people that you meet in your life that maybe come back into your life 15 years later. Yeah. That's provide tremendous value, right?- Yeah. - The, the question that you should be asking is, am I giving this contact meaningful opportunities to either take advantage of my value or for me to provide value to them? And neither of us are finding a way to, to, to take advantage of some kind of- Transaction. So it's not a give and take, it's just either a take or a give. So I, I think again, a good successful relationship is give and take. Right? Right. You're not gonna expect to get the same value from that person. It's gonna be give and take over time. And I think that that's what makes good friends and also good business relationships is giving and taking, Hey, one year I might do more for you. The next year I might do less for you, but overall we're, you know, we get along, there's different value. Because again, if I give you some business advice that makes you a million dollars, that's going to have a lot more value on that relationship than you saying, well here's a, you know, here's a free massage to my local massage therapist, because you're such a good person. Right,- Right. Well, again, I think, I think people are okay with having an imbalance in value exchange. Yeah. Right. I think most people are Okay. Especially Americans, we're, it's part of our culture. Yes. We were talking about this earlier- Today. Yes.- That we're very giving.- Yes.- Okay. And we, we definitely do not have a problem giving more than we take.- Yeah. I will say that about Amer. That's one thing I will say that that's why I love America so much is because Americans are very unique in that aspect. Right. And I think that's why a lot of people want to come to America. It's not just for the opportunity. And a lot of people say right now, especially in 2025, oh America, we have a lot of problems. You know, I don't care who says that America's the best country in the world by far. I've done business all over the world. And I will say this is by far the best country to become an entrepreneur in a hundred percent.- I agree.- Lots of access to capital. There's lots of people here willing to, to sacrifice, to help everybody get ahead for the common good. Right?- Right. So- Don't even now,- So for those givers like you Yeah. The pleasers Yes. People that wanna say yes. Yes. And wanna give, and they, and they have no problem with this power imbalance or value imbalance.- Yeah.- The important thing that you need to start doing is checking, right. Testing the temperature for the people that you're giving stuff to.- Right.- You go to the people and make sure that they understand the value of what you're giving. Because if all they're gonna do is sit there and take and have zero value attributed to this free stuff that you're giving them for no, nothing in return.- Yeah.- Then you're not creating a, a good relationship. You are creating- A toxic relationship, a toxic relationship. Well, you're gonna feel like you've been taken advantage of the whole time.- So, so consider this, right? Let's say you're mentoring a young entrepreneur.- Yeah.- Okay. They come to you and say, Hey James, I understand you've done some really great things in your life. You learned a lot, really tough lessons failing and, and starting again. I value all of that knowledge that you give me. I don't have the money to, to pay you what, what I think you're worth, of course. But would you please be so kind as to give me some of your time. Can you give me one hour a week to, you know, run some ideas by you? Right. I think you would be okay. Potentially. Yeah. Right. I think I would be having that kind of conversation. Of course. Setting up a relationship, doing those kinds of things. What's different would be you having somebody come to you who maybe is not a brand new entrepreneur, maybe somebody who's maybe got as much experience as you- Yeah.- Just coming to you and asking you, Hey, what do you think of this? Can you spend some time researching this issue and giving me this topic and giving me that? And then you say, well, hey, I, I don't work for free here buddy. Right? Yeah. And them saying, well, I don't think you're worth anything.- Yeah,- Right. I get it. Are you gonna continue giving in that- Relationship? No.'cause you feel they're- Grateful. So important is, is to make sure that they have a similar value attri attribution to what you're gonna be giving them. Okay. So it's okay to, to have this power, this value imbalance, but make sure that they truly understand your worth.- Okay. Yeah. I think, I think that makes a lot of sense. So I already know my answer, what I'm going to be texting afterwards, after the show. But again, I, I think that I, I think it gave me a lot of foo for thought and how to go forward with some of these relationships and, you know, clean it out and just say, let's focus on the people that really matter. They're gonna make an actual impact and we're gonna make an impact on each other's life, not just me. Right. But make an impact on each other's life. And if you both make an impact on each other's life, that will lead to a successful, you know, friendly, you know, business relationship.- Absolutely.- If that makes sense. Awesome. Well, that's our show for today. Thanks for coming on again, Andrew. We really appreciate the knowledge and thank you for the, I, I know you're not a psychotherapist, but thank you very much. You're, you're going to help me and you've already helped me and I'm sure you're gonna help a lot of other people out there. Thanks again for coming on the show again.- Thank you.- Later everybody.